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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 12 post(s)
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 1	Posted - 2013.04.21 05:13:00 - [1] - Quote So the great debate nerf cloaky camper vs nerf local. Lets look at these thingers for a minute and see what the fuss is about. First why are cloaky campers such a big sore spot? Why do people complain about cloaky campers so much but you never hear anyone whine about Hell Camps or Roams etc etc. Why is it cloaky campers specifically? Answer: Force projection. The problem: Afk cloakers project an amount of potential force while afk. It can just be a solo pvp pilot or a cyno alt for a cap fleet but is more often than not a covert cyno alt. The problem with this force projection is that it is only counterable by a couple of things which the cloaky pilot can assess and take action (generally by not taking action). You can move and let your system's industry fall out as the usual afk camper intends. Or you can keep security around the clock waiting for the 2 or 3 times out of 23 hours the afk cloaky guy decides to make a move. AFK > Active Pilots Then there's the sentiment about nerfing local. Why do people want this and what does it mean to everyone? Answer: The cloaky gankers want this to make ganking easier. This is along the same lines as the nerf high sec's safety. They're just a small minority that want to get easy kills with minimal effort/risk. Nerfing local chat would in fact reduce the risk for cloaky campers and cloaky guys of all types. It would also make it nearly impossible for anyone to rat/mine in null with any way of protecting themselves short of having 23/7 security. If this were to happen people would probably migrate to WH space, high sec or just unsub. You're probably wondering why WH if there's no local there already? Well it's pretty simple. 1: Cloaky campers in WH space cannot hotdrop you. 2: WH space does not have map data associated with it such as pilots in space in the last 30 min. 3: WH space actually has a great reward incentive for the moment, so losing ships is not as big of a deal. 4: WH space cannot be accessed on demand. Getting a camper into one of those systems is not easy. There really does need to be something done about afk campers. Really the problem has to do with Cloaky Cynos. Maybe there needs to be something done with the combination of the 2 modules. Maybe the Cyno module prevent the cloaking module from cycling indefinately.
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 1	Posted - 2013.04.22 05:31:00 - [2] - Quote DataRunner Attor wrote: I think what people don't understand, like what Erutpar Ambient Demonstrated is that, one must keep the system in balance, at the moment the system IS BALANCED. Here the TDL version of the current balance system to nerf local, you must nerf cloak to nerf cloak, you must nerf local When those conditions apply, normally things are rather balance, force projection is on it only slightly different topic cause of the bandaid bridge theory, but Cyno was not only made to avoid local, but because of it super caps depend on it for a means of transportation.... Which also means Cyno should be balanced carefully as well, the current and MAIN way to counter force projection is to block all normal cynos in general, black ops cynos are there to dodge cyno blockers. The system is not balanced. AFK cloak camping is the pvp version of Ice mining in high sec. The difference is, instead of having to offload every 35,000 m3 full you can just sit there all day and continuously project force until someone makes the mistake of having a nice ship out at the moment you decide to come back and scan for ships. The risk of cloaky camping is nothing. The reward: bleeding your victims dry while their systems fall back to zero indy/military levels. I'm sure cloaky camping has a pretty heavy impact on the "fullness" of nullsec. example: New alliance moves to Null as a renter. The day they move in someone plants a cloaky camper alt in each of their systems. A few days later the new alliance grows some huevos and starts mining/ratting in spite of the camper. The camper's alliance covert cynos in their 40+ bombers and such and kills a hulk and/or faction BS or 2. The new alliance moves back out of null sec. Null sec remains empty. Mission accomplished? If this was just 1 person ganking people that would be totally fine. But when you cov cyno in a 40+ blop drop then what do you do? Keep 40+ people ready at all times to reverse gank the blop drop? Yeah, good luck with that. TLDR; Cloaky Camper Blop Drop = Empty 0.0 GL on your next roam
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 2	Posted - 2013.04.22 23:47:00 - [3] - Quote I'm really starting to feel like Luke Wilson in "Idiocracy" where he's trying to convince everyone to water the plants with water instead of Brawndo. "But it's got what plants crave." "It's got electrolytes" I don't care if someone is Cloaky camping my system, I don't care if they cyno **** in and gank people. I don't care if they log off camp my system. What i do care about someone remaining in space in a hostile system and being 100% safe. That is what i have a problem with. In the spirit of Eve Online there should be absolutely no activity you can do where you're 100% safe. Whether it's high sec mining, station trading, PI and Datacore farming. There is always a chance something can come around and ruin your day. The only thing that is currently immune to this is AFK Cloaking. There needs to be a way to kill cloaky ships that stay cloaked for too long. My solution absolutely hurts nobody except afk cloaky campers that use Potential Threat Projection to keep a very high ratio of other pilots from going about their business. In my solution the cloak signature increases as time goes on. This means initially you won't be scanable, so if you're moving between systems in a transport ship you're totally unaffected. This ALSO means that if you turn your cloak off and turn it back on you reset your cloak signature completely. So by being at your keyboard every hour or 2 you actively prevent yourself from being Cloak Sig scanned down, but you don't lose your ability to project your potential threat on a system. If you're in WH space, then just log off or keep your computer close. This only prevents afking for long periods of time. Without local then there would be no fights anywhere ever. Roaming Fleets would just end up warping htrough each other in a system and jumping out the other end without ever seeing anything. No Local would be worse for target seekers than it would be for system dwellers.
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 49	Posted - 2013.07.09 22:02:00 - [4] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: .... Its hard to take anyone seriously with such an ignorant sig. As for this thread. What is it both sides want. And what are the current problems? Cloakers want to not be seen in local to have a real cloaked experience. Miners and ratters want to not be ganked/hotdropped randomly and constantly without being able to prevent it. Currently the cloakers are in the position of power. Any change will flip that position completely and/or give either side a complete advantage over the other. The fix to balance these things are definately going be in the form of an array of changes simultaneously,not just 1. Here are some of the problems. Local advertises the presense of any hostile. Adversly it also advertises to the hostile the presense of targets. With it cloakers can't really be hidden. Also without it roaming fleets would never find eachother. Covert ops cloak ships can tackle and cyno/covert cyno. This means they can Find a target undetected, tackle it, and have it hotdropped all on its own. Too much power for one ship. But by nerfing this alone it takes away the viability of the strategy completely. Another problem is the unlimited cloaking ability of ships. Someone can remain completely safe in a hostile system indefinately while cloaked. Nerfing this would allow pilots to pve in null sec at only the safest of times.(Is this really that bad?) Starmap statistics show exactly what's happening in all systems including mining and ratting. Nerfing this though would hurt people trying to avoid camped systems. What things are either side of this arguement willing to give up?
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 49	Posted - 2013.07.10 02:10:00 - [5] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: ... ... Yes the sig is ignorant. What's the difference between being cloaked and being docked? With a covertops ship you can target directly, you can warp around and collect intel, you can warp next to someone and cyno, you can shoot them or tackle them. A regular cloak is similar to docking up without the services, but you can cloak anywhere you want to, you don't have to load your ship in space and instead of being camped on the undock hostiles have no idea where you will uncloak.There's a lot of difference between being docked and being cloaked. A post like that is ignorant of the differences between docking and cloaking. Not really sure what your 3 parties involved in this issue are. Please explain. The situation is not balanced, the cloaker has the upper hand. Especially in the case of the CovertOps cloak. A covertops cloak can warp around and assess threat without being put in any kind of danger. The player can choose whether to engage or not. If they choose not, then they can just go afk and leave their ship in space perfectly safe from hostility until they come back later to assess threat again and decided if they can safely engage. Setting a trap can be done, but more than likely the Cloaker is going to get spooked and decided to come back later when everyone gives up. Eve is not like real life. We can't have people sitting around 24/7 waiting for something to happen because this is a game and they'll get bored and log off. All the defenders can do is either dock up, wait for them to choose to act, or relocate. But sometimes relocation doesn't work either. By undetected i mean that the target doesn't know it's being targeted. The target does obviously know there's a possibility of hostility but the hostility is not detected until it happens. And yes i realize there could be other mechanics for intel gathering. But as of current there arn't. Saying everyone in a system is safe from a cloaked hostile because "they can't do anything until it decloaks" is the same as saying that everyone is safe from a hostile ship in a system because they can't shoot until they activate their turrets. And yes we know clone jumping to lost stations is a safe way to be safe (-_-);; And starmap is to a hostile as local is to a defender. The only difference here is that the defender doesn't benefit from starmap data the way a hostile does with local. Except in the case that they want to counter attack with their own cloaky camper/blops hot drops.
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 49	Posted - 2013.07.10 05:08:00 - [6] - Quote Nyancat Audeles wrote: Oh gee! God forbid a covert ops ship with a COVERT cloak actually try to stay COVERT! The tears in this thread are incredible. Not all of EvE is "hurrrr durrr I can't shoot it so it must be OP". If you want to fight covops recon use your own intelligence and reconnaissance tactics. There are no tears here. What i said is true. You're counter argument is incredibly insightful. "if you can't beat it, join it" is what you said. If the only way to beat a ship is to use the same ship, then something is wrong. And in this case you still can't beat it! A Covert Ops Cloak is too perfect of Intel. Not only can you see who's in space, but you can see what they're flying and where they are then you can attack them if they're not a threat to you. All of this while being perfectly safe from harm. That far outweighs Local does it not?
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 52	Posted - 2013.07.12 05:13:00 - [7] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Erutpar Ambient wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: ... ... Yes the sig is ignorant. What's the difference between being cloaked and being docked? With a covertops ship you can target directly, you can warp around and collect intel, you can warp next to someone and cyno, you can shoot them or tackle them. Yes, but in all those instances the ship is vulnerable. That's true, but it's a choice you have. You can either stay cloaked up, or engage. If you're docked up you don't have those choices. Your only choice is to stay docked or undock blindly (unless you have your own cloaked ship sitting outside). But you see that is what the difference is. Covert Ops Cloak is vastly superior to docking up. Infact some of my corp mates will go covert ops cloak at a safespot while moving instead of docking up to go afk. That way they're not blindsided when leaving a station. For Docking up to be equal to the power of Covert Ops Cloaking, you'd need to be able to see outside of the station and fly it around until you choose the exact right time to undock onto someone. But then again you're still not cloaked but there's also not the possibility (however minimal it is) to be uncloaked by someone. Really though, regular cloaks are fine. When you say they can't do anything until they uncloak, that really only applies to a plain cloak. Covert Ops Cloak ships can do anything while cloaked. They're the real reason for all the complaints. I would be all for removing local if we could get rid of Covert Ops Cloaks. Or at least disallow Covert Ops ships from using warp jamming modules and cynos at the same time as a Covert Ops Cloak. Hell maybe even allow them to use Covert Cynos but limit where you can use them. This way you wouldn't know 10 people jumped into system, but also they wouldn't already be on top of your head either. They'd at least have to warp to you.
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 53	Posted - 2013.07.12 17:28:00 - [8] - Quote You guys know what I say is true. Wh space works because of a lot of things. Mostly the reward vs risk ratio but also very much because of the lack of hotdrops. Which again does lower the risk quite a bit without affecting reward. Why do you think people are comforable ratting in dreads? Its because they're not worried about getting plopped on my a gang of supers. In null sec the vast majority of the reward is in moon goo. Everything else is minimal. The only reason null sec would be considered safer than high sec at any time is because of player interaction. If we wernt able to set blue standing to our neighbors then everyone would be cloaky camping eachother 24/7. The only reason this isn't as rampant of a problem as it could be is because of the massive blueness of null sec. If every system was camped 24/7 the cost of living in null would far out weigh the benefits. I'm sure you guys will find a way to disagree with this of course.
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 53	Posted - 2013.07.12 22:26:00 - [9] - Quote Nyancat Audeles wrote: Erutpar Ambient wrote: Nyancat Audeles wrote: Oh gee! God forbid a covert ops ship with a COVERT cloak actually try to stay COVERT! The tears in this thread are incredible. Not all of EvE is "hurrrr durrr I can't shoot it so it must be OP". If you want to fight covops recon use your own intelligence and reconnaissance tactics. There are no tears here. What i said is true. You're counter argument is incredibly insightful. "if you can't beat it, join it" is what you said. If the only way to beat a ship is to use the same ship, then something is wrong. And in this case you still can't beat it! A Covert Ops Cloak is too perfect of Intel. Not only can you see who's in space, but you can see what they're flying and where they are then you can attack them if they're not a threat to you. All of this while being perfectly safe from harm. That far outweighs Local does it not? Oh gee! A ship designed and classified as a COVERT RECONNAISSANCE ship actually do recon! My world is turned upside down! I thought it was obvious. To counter enemy intelligence, use your own recon and intelligence. Yes the name is misleading. It should really be named "Covert Cyno Gank Ship". Or do people actually only use it for recon?
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 53	Posted - 2013.07.13 05:44:00 - [10] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Oh FFS. Yeah yeah, i guess it's to recon for a hotdrop target. That makes everything better... ???
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 54	Posted - 2013.07.16 16:42:00 - [11] - Quote Mag's wrote: Erutpar Ambient wrote: Nyancat Audeles wrote: Oh gee! A ship designed and classified as a COVERT RECONNAISSANCE ship actually do recon! My world is turned upside down! I thought it was obvious. To counter enemy intelligence, use your own recon and intelligence. Yes the name is misleading. It should really be named "Covert Cyno Gank Ship". Or do people actually only use it for recon? Going to extremes to prove a point, is a sure sign of a winning argument. Amiright? Although what that point is, is yet to be determined. The point is this. Covert Ops is over powered by being able to warp while cloaked, cyno AND tackle and in the case of recon also Ewar! Currently the only thing that is at all restricting covert ops from getting out of line is Local. If you change local to delayed or remove it then covert ops will get out of control. http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=pilot_detail&plt_ext_id=1574370004&view=kills This guy does nothing but fly around in a nemesis or arazu and drop his Nyx on ratting carriers. Even with local he is very successful as you can see. If local was removed or delayed or didn't show cloakers then his fail rate would probably disappear. There are others who do this too. Some use non-covert cloakers in cheap frigs that are only days old and in starter corps. The difference is that they'll plant them in a system and let them sit online in space cloaked for a few days until the inhabitants start to get comfortable. Then when they feel the time is right (and get a juicy target on dscan) they'll land on them cyno and the target is hotdropped before he even knows what happened. This would also be a much bigger deal if local was changed. The problem now with cloaked campers is this. If they're in your system, no matter how big or small their ship, its potentially as much force as 100 supers. If you undock and return to business as usual you're suicidal, if you undock in pvp ships then you're just wasting your time. Compared to WH space, the risks in Nullsec are much higher while the rewards are much lower. The only thing nullsec has is extra convenience.
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 58	Posted - 2013.07.22 18:07:00 - [12] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: If all you are worried about is a character requiring only a few weeks worth of training, I see no sympathy coming your way anytime soon. Now, if they have a fleet of expensive ships piloted by a group of players all waiting on a cue to begin combat... that is different. Fight fire with fire! Get a fleet of expensive ships piloted by a group of players all waiting on a cue to begin combat. If you are seriously expecting this bomber to have that kind of backup, and yet not seeing a need on your own part to match his commitment, where do you get the nerve to complain about it with any expectation of sympathy? I really do wonder if you have ever been to null, honestly. The few weeks training gives cyno power to a character to disguise the people he cynos in. Few weeks of training characters are in cloaky frigs are obviously cyno alts to people with long play time characters. Countering their fleet with an expensive fleet of your own is impossible. They won't fight head to head. They will only drop on a target kill it and then jump back out before anyone would be able to engage them with a fleet of any size or cost. There is no way to match their commitment unless you have a spy in their group giving you up to date information. Which I would doubt many if any renters would have. I know you do understand what all the hubub is all about. And I know you are for changing certain things to help aleviate the strain on both sides. There's no reason to counter argue everyone against cloaking with ignortance level reasoning. Unless of course its just to shamelessly bump your thread I guess.
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 58	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:56:00 - [13] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Erutpar Ambient wrote: Countering their fleet with an expensive fleet of your own is impossible. They won't fight head to head. They will only drop on a target kill it and then jump back out before anyone would be able to engage them with a fleet of any size or cost. Yeah, counter hot-dropping never ever happens. Counter blops dropping never does.
Erutpar Ambient Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance 92	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:25:00 - [14] - Quote Decrease the synergy between Cov Cloaks and Cyno. Then decrease the effectiveness of Star Map info. Then decrease the effectiveness of Local. Then Save the Cheerleader. Then save the World.

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